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If something does happen where it's impossible for us to resume our present state, wouldn't that more likely be a shift toward lesser abilities?
What happened to the descendants of Homo Erectus on the Isle of Flores?
Tiny, tiny brains.
Could something comparable be happening RIGHT NOW?
Maybe our skulls aren't shrinking every generation, but the genes governing the potential efficiency of skull content could be getting pretty mucked-up without anyone really noticing.
No one is old enough to remember a time when people may have been more innately smart, and we're so busy congratulating ourselves as a species for new technological advances always made by very, very few in a growing population with more and more toys and tinkering time, that it's tempting to imagine we're somehow making ourselves smarter... all the while discouraging smart people from having any kids, and making it easier and easier for dumb people to survive and breed.
Something's got to give eventually... doesn't it?
What happened to the descendants of Homo Erectus on the Isle of Flores?
Tiny, tiny brains.
Could something comparable be happening RIGHT NOW?
Maybe our skulls aren't shrinking every generation, but the genes governing the potential efficiency of skull content could be getting pretty mucked-up without anyone really noticing.
No one is old enough to remember a time when people may have been more innately smart, and we're so busy congratulating ourselves as a species for new technological advances always made by very, very few in a growing population with more and more toys and tinkering time, that it's tempting to imagine we're somehow making ourselves smarter... all the while discouraging smart people from having any kids, and making it easier and easier for dumb people to survive and breed.
Something's got to give eventually... doesn't it?
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Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 4:42 AMyes, theres tension bubbles of paradigm integrity in psychohistory.
sooner or later those bubbles must pop, or civilization runs down into an oblivion of its own entropy.
The truth about singularity is it is potentially almost upon us; and it is the one thing that oligarchy will never tolerate.
Infininite free energy or transhumanist evolution or even light bulbs that don't burn out; the mass mind control experiment which is
99 percent of our civilization is diametrically opposed to real evolutionary process; creating one side of that tension bubble. -
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Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 8:17 AMAs prosthesis evolves, natural ability devolves.
Singularitarians tend to see prosthesis as merging with natural ability at some point.
But what if they're just plain wrong? -
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Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 10:26 AMwell, it depends mostly on who gets the technology and how they use it.
but the truth is that the technology will one day be as simple as a biological nanite injection, and maybe even as simple as a drink
of nano goo.
An analysis of technology in its current state and a realistic projection into the future tells us that sooner or later its going to be possible.
As far as "singularity" in the formal sense of harnassing a singularity and quantum vacuum energy... THAT may or may not ever be possible.
As far as creating a possible world where anything can be manufactured at a whim and thus making the very concept of money obsolete
and the experience we currently have of aging an archaic curiousity...
thats going to happen if we can survive for another 200 years.
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Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 10:38 AMWhenever I read oblique discussions of prostheticizing the entire nervous system and subjecting it, unquestioningly to various 'improvements', I'm reminded of Hopkins being stuck in the buffer in Freejack. In Freejack, it's understood that identity cannot sustain indefinitely in such a buffer. But in our real future, we may not be able to recognize identity as having deteriorated, especially if it comes to be framed as 'purified' or 'optimized' or something like that.
It's a fair question why we should cling to identity at all if it means we can never be 'purified', 'optimized', 'integrated', etc. But I might also ask what is the point of transcending our current concept of identity if it neither poses any biological advantage nor truly preserves the most rightly valued aspects of biological personality and cognition.
Worst of all, I have just spent 5 years contemplating a cyber-reality in which the personalities of my McD drive-thru customers are preserved, immutably or perhaps even magnified or exaggerated in some way. The best case scenario I can see that includes something like that is one in which such 'people' are systematically deprived of their awareness that the new world is different from the old world, and in which they are thrown into an endless permutation of bizarre earthly dramas for the amusement of the next higher level of lowbrows (maybe including me?).
Surely, to try to 'fix' these 'people' in the next realm would or at least should be met with the maximum level of resistance, as their entire reason to exist is so thoroughly tied up in the feeling they get from getting away with self-destructive behaviors.
From a humane standpoint, the best we may be able to do for them is to utterly withhold any form of prosthesis that may allow them to 'transcend', or maybe to put them into some kind of sinusoidal buffer where they perpetually drive around McD, eating and getting hungry again by the time they get to order a few seconds later.
As for the nano-goo, if it can be used broadly to manipulate cell function in almost any way imaginable, should we expect it will be used to alleviate Big Mac Attack, or to perpetuate it, or both? There may be no answer to the moral question of what constitutes 'abuse' of such technologies once large aspects of organismic behavior have been handed over to various feedback loops with 'elective regulators' and whatnot, greatly ambiguating constructs like 'personal intention'.
But I have to ask these questions in some way if I can, no matter how much distant cyber-historians maybe at me when I'm long gone.
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Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Mon, May 12, 2008 - 4:02 AMamusingly enough, i think you have described the culture we have NOW. lol.
again, all i can say is sure, it could go that way. We could become very dystopian and things could get ugly.
Then again, it could go the other way, rendering all of these reservations of yours just archaic paranoia.
i think thats why we should explore it.
More or less, the real challenge is to create the ethos and social stability which will drive us to fullfill the happy part of
that potential rather than the unhappy part.
all of these questions could be very relevant to some potential future dystopia,
or, they could be totally irrelevant to some potential future utopia.
Really, the difference is made right here and right now, and thats why we should work on change in a positive direction.
I'm interested in preventing any of this stuff; its not a part of the world i envision.
I can't cure the dystopia of a world of your imagination.
I can't even cure the dystopia of the world we live in now.
What i can do is work towards a better world.
in theory, i think the power of what may come will supplant and transcend all of these fears because economics as we know it will
become barbaric history.
Evil is motivated by need and greed and people who don't have ways to meet their needs.
My assumption is that if we can create that goo; then the unerpinnings and root causes for dystopia will evaporate.
Other of these thoughts sound like they are way out of touch with how the technologies will actually work.
buffer zones and freejack etc are great plot devices, but no, future technologies won't look like that.
"optimization" means a lot to a lot of different people it means a lot of different things. No, i don't think we will be "optomizing"
or "purifying" like you worry or suggest. That simply doesn't jive with what can be deduced rationally about these technologies.
Watching too much star trek or star wars or some such has given you some pretty 1950s ideas about what these technologies will be like.
Clearly science fiction and cyber fiction use dystopian models or there would not be a platform for drama.
but in rational, sane reality, these technologies are going to make a world a whole lot more boring than that.
drama exists where there is conflict, and conflict exists where there is a fight over resources. nano goo renders virtually infinite resources.
So theres not much left to fight over. So theres no economics left as such, so theres no MCburgers and no commercials and no
consumerism as such. -
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Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Mon, May 12, 2008 - 6:45 PMIsn't it morally wrong to give people something better than what they both want and believe that they deserve? -
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Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 2:40 AMmorality is funny like that, as morality is subjective and depends on whose morality one is talking about.
Ethically, its wrong to give people anything other than the best that can be delivered, wether they want it or believe they deserve it or not.
Ethics are the laws of the universe. Morals are subjective interpretations.
My question is, where did you get that idea? Christianity?
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Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 8:34 AMI'm not a Christian. I 'get the idea' by living in a society that at least gives pretty good lip service to the claim that people have the right to make bad decisions for themselves. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 9:36 AMyeah, they do have that right. but in theory, i also have the right to try to wake them up. In the long run, if humanity survives the next 100 years,
my side wins for several reasons, not the least of which is inevitable social evolution and mass communication.
In theory, thats part of what singularity is about. Sociological and paradigm tipping points which cause paradigm shifts towards the infinite.
yes, it could go either way; towards an ugly dystopian nightmare, or, towards a fantastic beautiful utopia.
the nice thing about a dystopia is that it has a short life span.
Thus, eventually, utopia is an emergent property out of social evolution.
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Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 8:54 AM>Thus, eventually, utopia is an emergent property out of social evolution.
You're not accounting for the Dystopian Black Swan.
Good singularitarians need to recognize the Black Swan. -
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Re: 'dystopian' singularity
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 2:48 PMno, i am not accounting for it in these meagre posts.
no, i don't think that means i am not accounting for it,
just that as a sociologist and a psychohistorian, it doesn't fly.
At the tipping point of singularity level technology, economics becomes meaningless, the chief cost of building something is
only in designing it, and thus the assorted sociological root causes for dystopia are simply removed from game play.
Visions of singularity dystopia, in my opinion, can only be based on flawed understanding of what singularity will really mean.
When you can polarize and inflate singularities and utilize them technologically, even space exploration becomes economically pointless,
since you can build basement universes to suit your whim.
The "House" of a post singularity society is your own personal universe, your own personal planet, and your own personal
city(s).
When viewed from that context, dystopia in a post singularity society is simply impossible.
Singularity is the end of dystopia via technological achievement.
This is why technological advance has been stalled out on purpose at 1950 and 1970.
The better technology gets, the more real problems it potentially resolves.
Control freak vampires know this, and so they are trying to keep technology and all social movements
conquered and divided and subjugated, usually via infiltration and distortion.
The more original contemplations of singularity before people swiped the idea in frank ignorance and got lost as infiltrators
watered it down answers such questions with finality. The problem is that the transhumanist culture is by majority composed of people who really do not understand the fundamentals of what technological singularity(s) actually is or what it would mean.
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